Ascending the Temple Mount for the Sake of Saving Lives

Letter 2
Bs"d
To the Honorable Rabbi Neventzal, [May He be Granted Many Good and Additional Years],
Topic 3: Ascending the Temple Mount for the Sake of Saving Lives     On the Matter of The Temple Mount I have not understood your response. The Honorable Rabbi established that if there is a danger that Arab murderers will seize parts of east Jerusalem then there is justification for the government to send men to ascend the Temple Mount to defend, but this is not so, for ordinary citizens.
    In Shulchan Aruch, siman 329, we find the mitzva to desecrate the Sabbath for the sake of saving lives, applies when the Gentiles come to take wheat stalks or straw from a city which is located in an area where it is easy from there, to conquer the land; this is a point of law directed towards every individual citizen and not just, specifically for the government.
    And this ruling is taught if Eruvin page 45.
    Now in Eruvin we learn that David [according to the Netziv in Meromei Sadeh ] who was not yet a king, rather an individual citizen, had a mitzva to desecrate the Sabbath for the sake of saving lives by the mere fact that he would save the wheat stalks and straw of Ke’ilah [ a border city ]; and he did not have an exemption from the fact that there was already an army and a government in Israel at that time [ the kingdom of Shaul {Saul} ]. That is to say, the fact that the army and the kingdom are present is not a reason to exempt the individual from saving from the Gentiles when they come to take wheat stalks and straw from the border city. And how much more so, there is no reason to exempt an individual when the Gentiles come at the outset with the intention to kill and conquer.
    And so it is implied to me from the Tur, O.C., siman 329, that the mitzva is upon every man and not just upon the government and this is a translated quote: "And in a city that is close to the border, even if they have only come on account of money, we desecrate Sabbath because of them, and so too on account of a ship that is in danger of sinking in the sea or on account of a powerful river flooding, it is a mitzva for every person to save them and desecrate [Sabbath] on their behalf".
    Now perhaps the honorable Rabbi wants to compare our situation to the matter of a fire that Beit Yosef, O.C., siman 334, point 26, talks about, and this is a translated quote: "However he showed that one should pay attention according to the situation as viewed by the sages of the city, if there are judges and officials in the city that promise to save Israel and in such a type of situation if it appears that there isn't any danger at all, then they should not desecrate the Sabbath.
    However, in my humble opinion, the truth is that it is difficult to make this comparison.
    1 Because the words of the honorable Rabbi, have been well publicized, that on the ideological level, Ariel Sharon is a Rodef [someone whose actions if not stopped will lead to the killing of Jews] however, for a certain reason, in the opinion of the honorable Rabbi, one should not harm him. This is to say one should not rely upon the government alone in matters of security.
    2 Rabbi Yisrael Ariel told me that the head of the Jewish section of the Shabak [internal security service] said to him, that the ascent of Jews on the Temple Mount strengthens Jewish sovereignty there.
Topic 4: Rabbi Moshe Feinstein didn't tell us to rely upon the government to save us from Murderers and did not say that we should avoid prohibitions by sitting at home.     3 In Igrote Moshe, O.C., siman 75, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein after he established that there is a prohibition for women to carry a gun in normal times, nevertheless ruled the following:

"However regarding the essential ruling, it is simple that in areas that are close to the murderous Arabs that do not fear from the government, which is a common occurrence, women are permitted to carry weapons, not just to save themselves from being killed, but rather also just to save themselves from just being hit, for in these small wars, women are present as well as men, out of forced necessity and therefore there is no cause to differentiate between men and women in what they have to take to be saved, that one should take what is best for the matter. And all the matters of weaponry, one should consider it as though it is their manner for both genders even if in reality the women don't have experience with them because of their weakness and fright and they don't have the ability to save themselves, for this is the way it has to be, and it is not relevant to make differentiations in this, and it is also simple, that it is a matter of saving lives, and it is not pertinent to obligate on account of this, the women, that they should not travel to the places that they desire; and even if she takes with her a man, both of them should take weapons, for behold this improves the ability to be saved and it is possible that both of them will fall. Now just for the sake of going out to war , it is not the way for women and is forbidden and so too for regular places that are assumed to be in peace, it is forbidden for them."

That is to say, Rabbi Feinstein didn't tell us to rely upon the government and did not say that we should avoid prohibitions by sitting at home. Rather, all that helps to save lives from the murderers, he permitted and he wasn't strict to demand adherence to normal prohibitions.
    4 If the honorable, Rabbi, admits based on the incident involving Rabbi Sonnenfeld that to avoid hostility [from the Gentiles] it is permitted to ascend, why then is the danger in our days less dangerous than the incident of the hostility that the clock maker faced, when they requested that he make a clock for Moslem prayers on the Mount?
    Topic 5: Jews Enter the El-Aska Mosque to Save the Ramban Synagogue 5 Rabbi Noam Shapira and Rabbi Yosi Pelee wrote in the book, "Kuma V'naaleh" page 329 that in the Jewish year 5238 the heads of the Jews entered the El-Aksa Mosque on account of a struggle that they had over the Ramban synagogue - but perhaps, one can push this proof away by saying that those Rabbis held by the view of the Raavad. However, since a mere ten years later after the event, Rabbi Ovadia of Bartenura arrived in Jerusalem and from his words, it is implied that the custom already was in accordance to the Rambam's view regarding the Temple Mount; and in addition even then, there was already a firm tradition that the "Even Shtia" [where the ark of the covenant once stood] was beneath the Dome of the Rock, all this implies that they didn't enter the El-Aska Mosque base on the view of Raavad.
    Now this is a translated quote of Rabbi Ovadia of Bartenura as brought in the Igrote Eretz Yisrael, [Letters of the Land of Israel] by Avraham Yaari:

In our Holy Temple no Jew can enter. Even though many times the Ishmaelites wanted the Jewish wood and metal craftsmen to do there carpentry and other types of work, the Jews have prevented themselves from going in because of ritual impurity...

I have also investigated regarding the "Even Hashtia", where there the ark was placed, and many tell me, that it is found underneath a big and beautiful dome that the Ishmaelites built within the Temple and it is enclosed within this dome, and no man will go there to the place of the Even Hashtia for the Dome is very big..."

    6 At the Time of Ehud Barak, the government proposed to give the Arabs, the Temple Mount and to keep in our hands the Kotel, as part of a peace deal with Arafat, may his name be blotted out. Now even today the left is attempting to force us into the Geneva Agreement, where there, we would be conceding to the Arabs, heaven forbid, our rights to the Temple Mount, entirely.
    Now one should ask, why is the left, willing to surrender the Temple Mount, which is more important, but not the Kotel, which is less important? It seems the answer is that there at the Kotel there are many Jews who visit, yet on the Temple Mount this is not the case; and it is important to remember, what the left proposes today is what the Likud will propose tomorrow.
    7 Regarding the matter of the ascent of the Chief Rabbis of the State of Israel and Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook to the Temple Mount, at the time of the liberation of the Kotel, it appears to me that the main proof of Rabbi Ariel is that, even if you say that they got there by surprise, nevertheless the Dome of the Rock is very easy to recognize from a distance. And from the minute that they saw the Dome of the Rock on the Mount, they should have run with full strength outside [based on Hilchot Biat Hamikdash 3:21]. Now perhaps you can push away the proof by saying that from the actions of the Rabbis it is difficult to deduce Halacha [Jewish Law], for it is possible that there are other reasons to explain the reaction of the Rabbis on the Temple Mount on the day of the liberation of the Kotel.
    8 In the laws of Sabbath, sometimes there are differences of opinion where one side says the matter is forbidden, because it is a Torah desecration of the Sabbath, while the other side permits it entirely. Now when we add on the consideration of saving Jewish lives we sometimes rely on the opinion of those who are lenient. Now if so, I have already brought the opinion of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein at the end of Igrote Moshe, O.C., Volume II, who permitted the ascent to the Mount. And why not rely on him with the additional claim that we are thus saving Jewish lives.
    9 In Eruvin page 45 they said, "in the beginning they would leave their weapons in the house that was near the defensive wall. Once, the enemies took note of them and chased after them and they entered to take their weaponry and the enemies entered in after them and they pressed one against the other and killed one another, more than the enemies themselves killed. At that same time, they enacted that they return to their places with their weapons."
    10 Even without relying on the tradition on the whereabouts of the "Even Shtia" because of the confusion which a few researchers have brought to us, such as, Tuvia Sagiv, there are places on the Mount that are permitted according to all opinions.
    Regarding the matter of the measurements of Sagiv, the honorable Rabbi is correct that Sagiv when he gave to the Temple Mount after the addition of Herod, a mere 190 meters by 190 meters, is describing measurements less than the 500 cubit by 500 cubit Temple Mount of the Sages. However, that is a quote of his viewpoint, in his article that appeared on the Internet.
    Rabbi Tzvi Rogin brought yet additional proofs why not to give any serious consideration to the viewpoint of Sagiv, and one can buy a copy of his article at the Temple Mount Center on Habad Street opposite the Habad synagogue in the Old city of Jerusalem.
    Now I should stress that I don't have the authority to decide the matter; I still for all practical purposes obey the command of my rabbis not to ascend. I even am careful not to enter the new tourist site between the Temple Mount and the wall of the old city in the south, because the honorable rabbi, once told me that I have to be concerned about the opinion of the Tzitz Eliezer, that even that place has the status of the Temple Mount. I'm just playing the role of Miriam, who tries to honorably persuade Amram that his decree is harsher than Pharoah's.
    On the other hand I understand that perhaps the honorable Rabbi doesn't hold, he has the authority to permit, while many Torah giants of the past disallowed this and all my claims about saving lives don't add or subtract to the final conclusion.
    Now if so, perhaps the honorable Rabbi can permit something that the great sages of the generation haven't dealt with. That is to say that according to many of the Achronim [but not all] if we dig tunnels and rooms beneath the Temple Mount, they don't have the holiness of the Temple Mount, for the tunnels were not sanctified. And perhaps at least this the honorable Rabbi can support.
    Or else, if there is a way to act to remove the Gentiles from the Temple Mount perhaps the Rabbi can give his blessing to this.
    Especially according to the opinion of Rashi [as explained by Ohr Hachaim to Parshat Massei ], that the main mitzva, "Vehorashtem et Haaretz" is to expel the Gentiles from the land of Israel.
    with blessing
    Shlomo Scheinman

Topic 6: Appendix: The Thing which Saved the Jews of Jerusalem from the same type of Destruction that came to the Jews of Hebron in 5689 [secular year 1929]

In the book, Ish Al Hachoma [ The man on the Defensive Wall ] , the history of Master Authority, the Genius, Rabbi, Y.C. Sonnenfeld by S.Z. Sonnenfeld, volume 3 pages 315,316 the following incident is brought:

On Friday in the afternoon hours thousands of Arabs left the Omer Mosque incited after they had been heated up by a hateful and inciteful speech of the Mufti. They marched by the thousands armed with their knives and clubs towards the Jewish neighborhoods. Some of them turned towards the direction of Jaffe Road and another part turned towards Talpiot and Mekor Chaim and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City; however the main force of eight thousand turned in the direction of the neighborhoods of Meah Shearim and Beit Yisrael. At the head of the incited mob that closed in to the direction of Meah Shearim Street was an Arab Sheik brandishing a large sword who was instigating the rioters to launch a pogrom against the Jews and not to have compassion neither on men, women, or children for it was a holy war [Jihad]. The residents were seized by a great panic and all that had the ability took hold of an iron rod, a wooden beam, heavy building stones in order to defend themselves from the bloodthirsty rioters. Also a handful of Hagana defenders that assembled in the flour grinding station of Shabti"l in the city (today in the place stands the Breslav Yeshiva) were lost for an idea how to deal with this wild mob. When the rioters reached the Italian Hospital with calls of battle and murder ripping through the air, two youths exited the flour grounding station and marched towards the rioters. One of the youths, that under his cap bobbed his set of curled Peot, whipped out a gun and aimed it straight at the mouth of the head of the rioters who fell on the spot. When the rioters saw that their leader was killed, a great panic took hold of them and they began to flee in the direction of the Sh'chem Gate. The two youths sniped away behind them and threw a grenade and killed three additional rioters. Now more were killed by one trampling upon the other than were killed by the Jewish defenders in the panicked flight.
The bearded youth that shot at the head of the rioters and saved the Meah Shearim neighborhood was none other than Rabbi Aharon Fischer (father of the great and important Rabbi, Rabbi Yisrael Yaakov Fischer ZT"L).

That is to say, that the few that troubled themselves by natural methods to save themselves from danger and did not rely on the British, nor on their friendship with certain Arabs, they were the ones that saved in an actual way.
Now in my humble opinion, it is fitting to relate to the current regime in the land as Erev Rav, in accordance to what Rabbi Tzuriel wrote in Otzrote Haraaya, Volume 1 page 65 and this is a quote:

Now this is the wording of the Zohar (in translation) Now these Erev Rav return to be the shepherds over Israel... and the men of valor and those that fear sin go around from city to city and will not receive compassion... And all the sages and men of valor and fearers of sin are in pain, and stress and agony, considered to be as dogs... While these of the Erev Rav are rich, in tranquility, and delight, without pain or agony at all, robbers, masters of bribery, judges and heads of the nation. {end of quote}.

    "Now Moshe stood in the gate of the camp and said, who is for G-d let him come to me and all the sons of Levi gathered unto to him" [Exodus 32,26].
    with blessing
    Shlomo Scheinman

Rabbi Neventzal's Response	*********
Bs"D H' P'	And Avraham built there the altar	The Holy City of Jerusalem, Let it be Built and be Established Well Speedily In Our Days

    Shalom and blessing to the honorable R.S. Scheinman Shlit"a.
    My hearty encouragement to you for the letter and the pictures attached [comment by Mr. Shlomo M. Scheinman: this is a reference to the pictures of the sky in the Sinai region and the Negev in order to explain Rabbi Herzog's viewpoint concerning the color of Tekhelet.] We both live in Jerusalem, in the land of Israel, let it be Built and Well Established. Many times we see the sky on a clear day, and I assume that you too KT"R saw that it isn't dark blue but rather light. However based on the testimonies that Mar has sent me, and in light of the fact that Rambam talked about dark colors [comment by Scheinman: see Hilchot Tzitzit 2:1], I believe that I am compelled to accept his opinion.
    True, every person is commanded to save Jewish lives, however, in a real way the security forces have this task and to them (so we have to hope) is also the training and the necessary weaponry.
    Also Admo"r ZLLH"H and the Chazon Ish ZT"L permitted women to carry weaponry in dangerous places.
    I do not know the details of the incident of the year 5238. Maybe there was a threat of danger to Jewish lives.
    To our embarrassment and disgrace the government already conceded the Temple Mount in the agreement with Hussein. As understood, to the believers sons of believers there is no significance to the treaty. They appointed him to be the guardian of the Holy places, but he is neither of the sons of Aharon, nor of the sons of Levi, and the worth of his appointment is like the skin of a piece of garlic.
    I do not believe that the ascent of unarmed individuals to the Temple Mount contributes to saving lives. Perhaps it will just increase the dangers.
    True the tunnels were not sanctified, but only those tunnels that were in the time of Temple, but if we were to dig a tunnel seemingly it would be sanctified. Thus is it explained in Zevachim 24 that David sanctified the ground to the most deepest point.
    To my distress I do not know of a way to remove the Gentiles from the Temple Mount, except by means of Torah, Service, and Acts of Kindness.
    Certainly if Arab Rioters come, it is a mitzva to go out against them.
    With a Word of Encouragement
    With That Which is Valued By the Torah
Avigdor Neventzal

Issues Involving The Ascent To The Temple Mount - An Exchange Of Letters Between S. Scheinman and Rabbi Avigdor Neventzal

1 Rabbi Moshe Feinstein and Others Permitted the Ascent to the Temple Mount
2 The 500 cubit by 500 cubit Proof against Tuvia Sagiv
3 Ascending the Temple Mount for the Sake of Saving Lives
4 Rabbi Moshe Feinstein didn't tell us to rely upon the government to save us from Murderers and did not say that we should avoid prohibitions by sitting at home.
5 Jews Enter the El-Aska Mosque to Save the Ramban Synagogue
6 The Thing which Saved the Jews of Jerusalem from the same type of Destruction that came to the Jews of Hebron in 5689 [secular year 1929]
7 Tzachi Hanegbi Testifies that Ascending the Temple Mount Strengthens Our Control
8 Tunnels underneath the Temple Mount and more on Saving Live - letter 4
9 Proof That The Strict Opinion of the Tzitz Eliezer Concerning The Area Between The Wall Of The Old City And The Temple Mount Was Not Accepted As Halacha
10 The Three Oaths
11 The Ascent of Unarmed Citizens Causes Armed Policemen To Ascend
12 Regarding the Ascent of the Rabbis To The Temple Mount During the Six Day War
13 *The Identification of the Even Hashtia* by Sefer Har Hamor of Rabbi Yosi Pelee**
14 Entering New Tunnels On the Temple Mount
15 Ascending the Temple Mount for the Sake of Conquest
16 Do we have to Worry that our Ascent to the Temple Mount Causes the Ascent of Policemen that did not Immerse in a Mikva
17 Rabbi Kook's Position
18 Perhaps the Police Will Hit Those That Ascend the Temple Mount
19 Rabbi Kook Explains Why Daniel Was Allowed To Risk His Life When He Openly Prayed Against The Wish Of The Government
To Return to the Home Page of www.600000men.com

Movies And More At www.600000men.com
Topic of Movie	right click on link and choose Save Target As to download in wmv format	right click on link and choose Save Target As to download in asf format	double click on link to see in slideshow format online
Movie: Location of the Temple on the Temple Mount In particular the movie refutes Tuvia Sagiv's southern theory.	wmv movie link		slideshow link	1
Movie: Location of the Temple on the Temple Mount part 2 In particular this movie refutes Asher Kaufman's northern theory.	wmv movie link	asf movie link		2
Movie: Location of the Temple on the Temple Mount part 3 In particular this movie refutes Rabbi Shlomo Goren's western theory.	wmv movie link	asf movie link		3
Movie: The Temple Mount and the Size of the Cubit	wmv movie link	asf movie link		4
Movie: The Settlement of Elei Sinai Two Months Before The Expulsion [Disengagement]	wmv movie link			5
For The Hebrew Version of this Web Site - Go To http://www.600000men.com/hebrew/default.htm
For More About the Temple - www.hamikdash.com
Ohr Leah Generous food packages to dozens of destitute Jewish families every month